Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

[Duke0196]

I think the issue was balance and ease of play

I definitely see your point as to balance. I wonder if we would have seen more Japanese weapons if the Burma campaign was expanded.

Still, it is interesting the developers didn't give the Italians their Carcanos, etc. Either from the beginning or when they released Sabre. EA sort of did the opposite. MoH:Breakthrough provided Italian weapons but the Italians in MoH:Airborne were only given German weapons. I wonder if those graphics could somehow be imported or reworked to make things easier?

Well... at least you can not use them, and then they are no problem.

After one of our discussions I went in and got the briefing dates and started putting together a list of the dates weapons started entering service to try to stick with the more appropriate weapons trying to keep in mind manufacture dates does not necessarily mean they were in general use ... especially when it comes to using "foreign" weapons. Going by this link the M1 Carbine was used by the SAS in 1943 though US forces were using it in 1942. http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreig ... eapons.htm

changed from Blizzard to Snowball

Wow, how did you pick up this tidbit? So they just picked the names?

I knew about "Husky" and "Overlord" but was curious about the others. Maybe somebody actually did their homework since, unless they are part of "still-to-be-declassified" list of names, none of them came up except for "Husky" or "Overlord." By coincidence, or not, there was a German Operation Seewolf which is listed as the last major German submarine operation of WW2. Source: Codeword Dictionary by Paul Adkins, Motorbooks International, 1997

mislabeling of the submarine as a "U-58,"

Well, there are definitely things here and there. I noticed they misspelled "Dakota" as "Dacota" in the first mission jump cut-scene and the crashed "Spitfire" has serial VE-153 which was apparently assigned to a cancelled Seafire. http://www.ukserials.com/prodlists.php?type=1034

SeG 42 ... Easter egg hunt.

A bit of souvenir hunting, eh? Finding it one the enemy was one thing but, as mentioned earlier in the thread, I was really surprised to find the Fairbairn-Sykes on one of the Italians. Seems somebody was doing their own souvenir hunting .

I only play SP and I think enemy weapons usually do not become "available" until after they have been found/plundered/whatever but while the Arisaka with optics is available in the "Mountain King" mission ... I do not ever recall finding it on any of the Japanese soldiers in the "Anthill" mission.

Other than the flare gun in the Operation Houndsmith missions, I haven't any H&DSS unique weapons in SP. It sort of like the Russian weapons and shotgun not being available in the H&D2 SP. Not historically correct, I admit I've used a mod to access them for a chance of pace.

Seitengewehr 42... is the "German knife" hanging from various Germans. It is actually a bayonet with multitool stored in the belly of the handle.

Well, you definitely got my interest up. That is so cool. I didn't know about this. http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=5127

Man, it really would be nice to fire the Bren from standing and kneeling.

Well if you truly want that, maybe I can send you my mod sometime. Though there are added limitations and restrictions as well to be thorough. Do you still play the game regularly?

Yes, thanks Vit. That would be great. I usually do mission every day or so but only SP, not MP.

I have tried using the Bren to be more historically accurate but truly miss the walking fire ability of the BAR.

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

Either from the beginning or when they released Sabre.

Well SS was haphazardly produced... Starting with the Libya operation all the "soldiers" are wearing Luftwaffe uniforms, they didn't bother making new ones. They were fine for the original operation in Libya, but not for the SS one. Then there is the Tiger tank in the coop variation of the third mission, I removed it from my server, without causing crashing for anybody. It makes no sense whatsoever for a lone Tiger to be on the Eastern side of Libya. The first time it saw combat in Africa was over a month later in Tunisia, sent in as part of a last effort to not get kicked out of Africa. On the fifth "Africa" mission, you can use suspension of disbelief, since it is over a month later and they are not actually seeing documented combat and we are on the Western side of Libya right up next to Tunisia.

trying to keep in mind manufacture dates does not necessarily mean they were in general use

Sure, but we are using lots of weapons that seem to be prototypical, I always imagine we are a unit that is given all the "new toys" right off the bat. We test them in the field, we are a good way to get them right into combat. So sure I think we would have had something like the carbine as early as it could have been shipped to the UK.

I go by us being SOE operatives, not SAS. The SAS used what ever was available to them, our unit in game seems to have first priority on new technologies, not like that of the SAS. Of course you are going right by the SAS, who happened to come upon the weapon, like it, then request it.

Wow, how did you pick up this tidbit? So they just picked the names?

I have seen is discussed before and if you listen and read the briefing carefully you hear the briefer call it Operation Blizzard. They definitely just picked the names... Husky and Overlord are because they are popular and they wanted you to feel apart of them.

I noticed they misspelled "Dakota" as "Dacota" in the first mission jump cut-scene and the crashed "Spitfire" has serial VE-153 which was apparently assigned to a cancelled Seafire.

Yep, been fixed it. Canceled... or given to the SOE and lost to enemy fire!? Yet another thing that takes this operation out of the March 1941 date. See my point!? This is not 1941!

I was really surprised to find the Fairbairn-Sykes on one of the Italians. Seems somebody was doing their own souvenir hunting .

I am sure it was just a mistake, and it was meant to be the SeG 42. In the items file they have very similar codes. The knife was not any production model I have ever seen, it is a facsimile of the original pattern blade and ricasso, and the ring grip pattern hilt. Also known in modern times as first pattern and third pattern. They were not manufactured together. Now it is possible it is a custom knife, just for our unit, but this Italian would have had to of killed one of "us" to get it.

I only play SP and I think enemy weapons usually do not become "available" until after they have been found/plundered/whatever but while the Arisaka with optics is available in the "Mountain King" mission ... I do not ever recall finding it on any of the Japanese soldiers in the "Anthill" mission.

Yeah, I don't remember ever seeing it other than in the hands of Germans in multiplayer.

Other than the flare gun in the Operation Houndsmith missions, I haven't any H&DSS unique weapons in SP. It sort of like the Russian weapons and shotgun not being available in the H&D2 SP. Not historically correct, I admit I've used a mod to access them for a chance of pace.

Well... the "flare gun" is used in the third mission of SS by a German near the abandoned town. It is a Harrington & Richardson Mk VI, known as Signal Pistol Mk.VI or No.1 Mk.IV in British service. That is correct, 6 and 4. The British purchased them at the end of 1941, so if it is given a fixed date, they would have been available from the time of the "Arctic" operation. It is hard to believe a man in the Luftwaffe would be using one. He is armed with nothing else in the mission.

The shotgun, I do not know what it is, there were lots of Czech double barreled, side by side shotguns and they are all very similar. None of the ones I have seen from the period match the one in game. I have always wanted to ask a developer what they used as the basis. If you know or can figure out what it is, let me know. It is by the way available in the fourth mission of the final operation, laying on some boxes in the back room of the barn type area in the back of the map. The Russian weapons are available in the final mission of the final operation, on the Russians that attack you.

I have tried using the Bren to be more historically accurate but truly miss the walking fire ability of the BAR.

Well in my mod the BAR is modded to be fired from the shoulder.

[Patchman123]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =255498896

Italian M1939 combat knife. I believe this was standard issue in the Italian Army during World War II.

We could have this for the standard Italian combat knife in the game during the Spaghetti Airport level, instead of the Fairbairn-Sykes Dagger currently in the game.

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

It was not; that is the paratrooper version. Issued to paratroopers, of course, and the Colonial Militia. The standard army version had a different handle.

It would be great, but it will be a lot of work. Can you model it, skin it, and code it?

[Patchman123]

It was not; that is the paratrooper version. Issued to paratroopers, of course, and the Colonial Militia. The standard army version had a different handle.

It would be great, but it will be a lot of work. Can you model it, skin it, and code it?

What differentiated the standard version from the paratrooper version? How do you skn, model, and code something? I am not sure how to do it. How do you do that? I have no experience with modding or skinning, coding, and modeling models in the game.

[Duke0196]

Well SS was haphazardly produced... Starting with the Libya operation all the "soldiers" are wearing Luftwaffe uniforms, they didn't bother making new ones.

Well, thankfully they did do something. This early screenshot for "Op. Nomad-Airshow" has the dead German in almost all green.

Op Nomad - Airshow - Early development

1185224531-resize.jpg (37.64 KiB) Viewed 16456 times

They were fine for the original operation in Libya, but not for the SS one.

I admit I wasn't too aware of the mission dates until after we spoke one time and I went back in to get them. That's when I realized that the "Africa" campaign (Op Nomad) supposedly took place a month after "Libya" (Op Heat). I recall trying to figure out "where" in Africa but other than "Sahara" I didn't find "Abn-Sin-Oan" or "Daiburn." I guess they may have made those up for the game too as some "military" base names since they definitely aren't civilian settlements.

I always imagine we are a unit that is given all the "new toys" right off the bat. We test them in the field, we are a good way to get them right into combat.

Ugh. Field testing. I bet the Pacific Marines felt they were doing that with the Reising.

So sure I think we would have had something like the carbine as early as it could have been shipped to the UK.

Cool. I guess I won't feel guilty if I use the carbine in Africa/Libya for "field testing." And to ensure quick delivery ... I'll make sure its sent FedEx.

I go by us being SOE operatives, not SAS.

I see how that opens up possibilities.

Wow, how did you pick up this tidbit? So they just picked the names?

I have seen is discussed before and if you listen and read the briefing carefully you hear the briefer call it Operation Blizzard.

Boy, how embarrassing. After doing the campaign numerous times, I just bypass the spoken brief but I did hear him say "Operation Blizzard" at the beginning of Mission 3 even though the written does properly read "Operation Snowball - Rendezvous." I guess I didn't remember since I don't do "Snowball" that much. I like the missions but I have to admit the crunching "snow" sound gives me the willies. It's like "fingernails on the chalkboard" to me.

Canceled... or given to the SOE and lost to enemy fire!?

Hmm, you have a point there. So true, so true.

Yet another thing that takes this operation out of the March 1941 date.

I wonder why they chose March 1941? The manual refers to the inception of the SAS, etc but "Operation Snowball" pre-dates the SAS. Using your argument, the case could be made that "Snowball" was indeed an SOE operation.

Arisaka with optics

Yeah, I don't remember ever seeing it other than in the hands of Germans in multiplayer.

Looks like I'll have to head back into the jungle. I'm wondering if it's a soldier in one of the MG emplacements? I don't always check them out.

Well... the "flare gun" is used in the third mission of SS by a German near the abandoned town.

Oops, I see my post wasn't so clear. What I meant is being available from the SP Inventory Selection menu. Hopefully, this will make more sense. Again, talking only SP.

In Operation Heat, the "flare gun" is not available for the first three missions in the Inventory Selection menu. Since it is used by the German in the third mission ... the developers probably consider it a German "weapon" for gameplay purposes and therefore, as a plundered weapon, it should/would have been available for "selection" if there had been a fourth mission. I hope that made sense.

It is a Harrington & Richardson Mk VI, known as Signal Pistol Mk.VI or No.1 Mk.IV in British service.

Well, that accounts for it being available in the first mission of Operation Houndsmith. Thanks for that tidbit. Probably didn't name it properly to avoid the need for two different flare gun models.

The shotgun ... if you know or can figure out what it is, let me know.

I'm not completely sure but this info might help and full credit goes to Lars for this screenshot.

The shotgun's graphics in "Annual Fair" are terrible but they are the same as the screenshot. What threw me was they refer to it as a Remington Cal. 70. I didn't find an exact match but Remington did make some side-by-side break-action shotguns that had optional rifle barrel inserts. One of the available sizes being .45/70 caliber. If anything, this could be the basis for the shotgun.

Remington Cal. 70

Remington Cal 70.jpg (11.4 KiB) Viewed 16456 times

The Russian weapons are available in the final mission of the final operation, on the Russians that attack you.

Yeah, that's true. At least you do get to try them out. As in my earlier comment, I guess the same thing could be said about the Russian weapons. If there was just one more mission, the "plundered" Russian weapons could have been available for SP selection. If anything for a change of pace in SP replay.

Say, speaking of weapons ... here is a screenshot of a weapon that didn't make the cut. Again, credit goes to Lars.

zk 38

zk38.jpg (12.28 KiB) Viewed 16456 times

I have tried using the Bren to be more historically accurate but truly miss the walking fire ability of the BAR.

Well in my mod the BAR is modded to be fired from the shoulder.

Well, if it works in SP ... by all means feel free to send it to me via PM.

Oh, speaking of the BAR ... I remember an early trailer that showed "our" guys using the BAR with a bi-pod. They, however, were still able to fire in a crouched or standing position.

Thanks again for the neat info Vit. I really hope that Remington screenshot helps you out.

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

What differentiated the standard version from the paratrooper version?

The handle, hilt, whatever, crossguard... completely different.

How do you skn, model, and code something?

I don't know how to explain, first you would need to be a good artist, then familiarize yourself some kind of 3D editing software and then with the HD2 filesystem.

Well, thankfully they did do something. This early screenshot for "Op. Nomad-Airshow" has the dead German in almost all green.

Yeah, but that is not SS. It is SS that is the problem.

I recall trying to figure out "where" in Africa

The second mission places us in Hamada al-Hamra, north western Libya.

I'll make sure its sent FedEx.

Funny, we are having a discussion relevant to history and you introduce an anachronism! FedEx didn't exist; UPS did.

I wonder why they chose March 1941? The manual refers to the inception of the SAS, etc but "Operation Snowball" pre-dates the SAS. Using your argument, the case could be made that "Snowball" was indeed an SOE operation.

Well... like I said before, there is just too much that makes the 1941 date preposterous, I took it all into account. They chose March 4 1941 because of Operation Claymore. They mention Stamsund and Svolvær specifically in the briefing. Though these were targets throughout the war, not just then. The briefing implies they are a diversionary attack just for us. The unit that comes to pick us up is American. They have American weapons, an American boat, and American accents. The mission files still label them as American as well. They just gave them the British uniform, something I have corrected to the American one. So that part also implies the date is after the US entered the war, not to mention the torpedo boat not existing in 1941 as has been said before.

Looks like I'll have to head back into the jungle.

That would be the fun option, but you could also check the items file and see if it is on the map. I would not be surprised if it is not on it at all.

the developers probably consider it a German "weapon" for gameplay purposes and therefore, as a plundered weapon, it should/would have been available for "selection" if there had been a fourth mission. I hope that made sense.

Your logic is correct, but I sincerely doubt they consider it a German weapon for any purpose. They were just lazy and wanted to show a streak of color, they were probably into raves.

Well, that accounts for it being available in the first mission of Operation Houndsmith. Thanks for that tidbit. Probably didn't name it properly to avoid the need for two different flare gun models.

I am sure it was created just for that operation, you have it in the first mission because you are supposed to jump in with your gear that you need. It was just added to Libya for shits and giggles.

I really hope that Remington screenshot helps you out.

I have seen that screenshot before, nothing I have ever seen or found like it. It felt like a red herring. Though maybe you can do some research on it.

[Duke0196]

Yeah, but that is not SS. It is SS that is the problem.

Another case where I knew what I meant but it didn't come out right. I agree about SS but what I meant is at least they didn't just leave the Germans in green.

Operation Claymore.

You saved me a lot of research time just trying to figure out the possible connection. I was immediately able to start reading about the Operation. Thanks.

The unit that comes to pick us up is American. They have American weapons, an American boat, and American accents.

I always had a "what's wrong with this picture" feeling on the docks.

Say, speaking of weapons ... since this is "1941" ... shouldn't the dying "American have a M1928A1 Thompson? I think the M1 was still in development at that time. Unless this is another case of early "field testing?"

That would be the fun option,

Hey, I'm all for fun!

but you could also check the items file and see if it is on the map. I would not be surprised if it is not on it at all.

I've opened up files like "items.dat" in notepad and admit I haven't the foggiest about a lot of it.

I have seen that screenshot before, nothing I have ever seen or found like it. It felt like a red herring. Though maybe you can do some research on it.

I'll see what I can come up with but don't hold your breath.

As for the Remington screenshot you might have seen it on Lars' "Missing in H&D2" page or Gamespot. Even though the screens I posted earlier have the old Gamespot logo, Lars' page is the only one I've come across still showing images of the zk38 or Remington. Gamespot currently shows two similar images, but for the MP44 and a Hawker Typhoon IB. (see below)

It really makes me wonder what they had planned. I've also seen images of the La-5, the Aichi Val, a Matilda II, and even a shot of a boat flying the Japanese Naval Ensign.

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

Say, speaking of weapons ... since this is "1941" ... shouldn't the dying "American have a M1928A1 Thompson? I think the M1 was still in development at that time. Unless this is another case of early "field testing?"

The first prototypes of the M1 were not popped out until the beginning of 1942, so no, not possible in 1941.

I've opened up files like "items.dat" in notepad and admit I haven't the foggiest about a lot of it.

I just had a look, it looks like one person on Burma 1 and two people on Burma 2. So get to it and confirm it, before I do.

[Duke0196]

Say, speaking of weapons ... since this is "1941" ... shouldn't the dying "American have a M1928A1 Thompson? I think the M1 was still in development at that time. Unless this is another case of early "field testing?"

The first prototypes of the M1 were not popped out until the beginning of 1942, so no, not possible in 1941.

Yes!! Well, that basically confirms he should have had an M1928A1. Thought so.

I've opened up files like "items.dat" in notepad and admit I haven't the foggiest about a lot of it.

I just had a look, it looks like one person on Burma 1 and two people on Burma 2. So get to it and confirm it, before I do.

I'll check but no worries if you get to it first.

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

Well, that basically confirms he should have had an M1928A1.

To use that logic, you are abandoning all other logic that says this is not 1941. Sure he could even have the 1928A1 in 1942 or 1943, but does that mean he should have it? Though simplified, the M1 was not inferior because of it.

[Duke0196]

No Vit, you've apparently misunderstood what I was trying to convey ... so you've gone on a totally different tangent so I'll try another format.

- In-game Mission Date: 03 March 1941. Dying "American" carries an M1 Thompson.

That is not possible.

- M1 prototype was not completed until February 1942.

- Prototype sent to the US Ordnance Dept for testing in March 1942.

- Production started in June 1942 at both the Savage and Auto-Ordnance plants, completely replacing the M1928A1 in production. Some were also produced at the Stevens plant.

Source: The Thompson Submachine Gun, Chris Ellis, Parkgate Books, 1998.

Therefore, all I'm saying is, if this accuracy project does come to fruition and missions are looked at on an individual basis as to actual weapon's availability ... the dying "American" cannot have an M1 Thompson SMG during the supposed 03 March 1941 mission date.

Possible options:
- Keep the M1 ... then the mission date needs to be revised accordingly ... which as stated would be more historically accurate considering various other factors which have already been stated..

- However, if the current 04 March 1941 date is kept ... the M1 has to go; however it could possibly be replaced with a model of the M1928A1.

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

No Vit, you've apparently misunderstood what I was trying to convey ...

No Duke, I did not. What I am saying is very relevant.

In-game Mission Date: 03 March 1941. Dying "American" carries an M1 Thompson.

That is not possible.

Exactly... so I am correct, you are abandoning all other logic. There shouldn't even be an American unit on this operation if this is supposed to be during Operation Claymore in March 1941. American volunteers, maybe, but still far fetched.

Therefore, all I'm saying is, if this accuracy project does come to fruition and missions are looked at on an individual basis as to actual weapon's availability ... the dying "American" cannot have an M1 Thompson SMG during the supposed 03 March 1941 mission date.

I understand what you are saying, but that abandons everything else you know. You shouldn't be saying that the American should be using an M1928 or M1928A1, you should be saying someone really messed up on that date.

Keep the M1 ... then the mission date needs to be revised accordingly ... which as stated would be more historically accurate considering various other factors which have already been stated..

Do it, go into your HD2 folder, find the Text folder, pick your language, grab the Texty and change the date. The only thing I can imagine to be difficulty for you is changing the cut scene date. You need to go into the subtitles folder inside the Text folder and change the brief file, then extract the sounds and change the accompanying sound stream.

However, if the current 04 March 1941 date is kept ... the M1 has to go; however it could possibly be replaced with a model of the M1928A1.

To do that you would also have to replace the Type VIIF U-boat, the Me262s, the F21 type camera, the 80' Elco, potentially both aircraft in the beginning cut scene, the MG42s, etcetera. Not to mention the whole beginning "we, members of the SAS" bit.

The bigger problem is that we don't really have the capacity to change models right now, let alone create them from scratch for this game, using their system. I was able to swap models and fix some errors, but the developers had laid the ground work.

[Duke0196]

The bigger problem is that we don't really have the capacity to change models right now, let alone create them from scratch for this game, using their system. I was able to swap models and fix some errors, but the developers had laid the ground work.

Unfortunately, that is probably the biggest misfortune of this game. It is really a great game but it really would have been great to play new maps, weapons, etc in SP.

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

I just physically checked Burma 1, 2, and Africa 1.

There are no rifles with the optic on the Burma maps at all. When I looked through the file I just looked for a string, and the strings don't always correlate to an item; I hadn't made sure that was the case.

On Africa 1, all the Germans are speaking Italian, great. Also the guy with the FS fighting knife is not one of the reinforcements like I stated earlier, he is the guard outside the hanger next to the main building, but you found him already didn't you. That is rhetorical... and he doesn't have it anymore.