Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

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Patchman123
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Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by Patchman123 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:29 pm

I was thinking about having an Italian weapons mod for Hidden & Dangerous 2 because the Italians use German weapons in the game when they should be using Italian ones. Most militaries of the period used their own weapons because they were cheaper to issue and produce from their own countries and a matter of national pride of course.

The Italians are armed with a Mauser K98 rifle, Luger P08 pistol for the officers, and MP-40 submachine gun. I propose having the Italian officer in Spaghetti airport armed with a Beretta 1934 9mm pistol, instead of a Luger P08. The Italians also have an MP-40 submachine gun. They were usually armed with a Moschetto Beretta MAB 1938 submachine gun. The Italians were not heavily into submachine guns. The Italian pilot uniform is wrong. Why does the Italian pilot have a Luftwaffe pilot's uniform? Isn't there own air force's uniform not good enough? Uniforms are a source of pride to tell apart your nation from everyone else. They're like a team jersey for your football team to tell apart enemy from friend. I think having a Luftwaffe pilot's uniform for Italians is foolish. Sorry if I'm too opinionated. The Italians usually issued submachine guns to special forces soldiers. The Beretta submachine gun was widely issued to paratroopers during the war and the Italian army generally fought with rifles anyway. Submachine guns were not widely issued among Italian forces during the war, not until 1943 at least. By then, it was too late and Italy had already surrendered.

I know the Italians borrowed heavily from the Germans, but isn't wearing someone else's pilot uniform when you could easily have your own uniform a little ridiculous? :oops:
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared ... 4P-017.jpg
This is what an Italian pilot's uniform looks like.


Why is the jeep in the game is armed with a puny .30 caliber machine gun? SAS jeeps carried a .50 caliber machine gun on top on the jeep in the passenger compartment. I was thinking about having a .50 caliber machine gun on top of the jeep. The .50 caliber was best suited for shooting up airfields because it's heavy bullet easily penetrates material and destroys parked airplanes. I propose replacing the .30 caliber with a more powerful, hard-hitting .50 caliber.


Is it possible to add a Browning .50 caliber machine gun for the jeep. I do not mean to picky here, people.

The Italians also use an MG-42 machine gun. This was not widely used by Italian forces because they usually used their own weapons. The Italians at the airport would probably use a Beretta M-37 heavy machine gun at the position or a Breda Modello 30 light machine gun. Didn't they usually use a Beretta Modello 30 for position type stuff?
The Breda machine gun will be used as a position weapon. The Panzerfaust was never used in North Africa, either.
The Italians used a 20mm anti tank rifle to bust enemy tanks or artillery. I wish to get rid of the Panzerfausts in Spaghetti airport in my mod.

My mod will be broad and encompassing. I will make it so that soldiers can fire the Bren gun in the standing position because it could be fired from the standing position and it's ridiculous that you can't fire it in a certain position. Guns don't care about whether or not you lay down prone or shoot standing up. It really doesn't matter.

The Italians will also use the Carcano 1891 bolt-action rifle for a standard infantry rifle. The Italians will use a gun for rifles and they will use the anti tank rifle located inside the headquarters of the airfield. The Panzer III will be replaced by an M-13/40 Italian tank because that was the standard Italian medium tank of the war. The Italians never used a Panzer III battle tank in service.


Would anyone like to pitch in?


How come there isn't a PIAT anti-tank weapon in the game? The British usually used the PIAT as their standard Anti Tank weapon during the war. They used the bazooka, yes, but normally wouldn't they use a PIAT anti-tank weapon for an anti-tank weapon?


The MG-42 sound sounds kinda dull. The MG 42 makes a distinct ripping sound as it is fired that sounds like a dog ripping away at a piece of meat. MG 42 makes a dull sound in the game.

I propose having an MG-34 for the Norway missions. The MG-42 did not come out until 1942. The 42 in its designation means 1942 the year it entered service. Having a weapon that entered service in 1942 for a mission that takes place in 1941 is anachronistic. The people in 1941 would not know an MG-42 because it hadn't come out yet. People usually don't know about stuff until it comes out because they're not psychic and people can't foresee things.

The game also has a Delisle commando carbine being used in 1941 for the Norway mission. The Delisle carbine did not enter service until 1943.



The MG-34 will be used in the 1941 Norway level. The MG-34 machine gun will be used in the game as a German weapon. I propose using a portable MG-34 and portable MG-42 for use in the game with an option to capture the machine gun during the game. You can remove the gun from a fixed position using the game menu controls. I propose doing that.
Reload animations for machine guns would be nice.

To sum it up, I would like to put in the game a PIAT anti tank weapon, Breda Modello 30 light machine gun, Carcano M 1891 rifle, Beretta M1934 pistol for the Italians, a Moschetto MAB Beretta for some soldiers, and MG-34 machine gun, and Enfield No. 5 Jungle carbine for the Burma campaign, and what I said above.



(The Jungle Carbine Enfield shortened rifle was used in the jungles of Burma for a shorter fielding rifle for jungle campaigns against the Japanese.)


Would anyone like to make an Italian Weapons mod for the game?


If anyone is interested, let me know.
Last edited by Patchman123 on Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:49 am

You are not completely off, and it is refreshing to see someone bothered by things like this, but you only address a few of the MANY anachronisms and you are wrong about a few issues...

Those are not P38s, they are P08s.

The Italians not using submachine guns is incorrect. They were issued submachine guns just as much as in any other nation, one per squad or about 9 men, which in game is not the case, too many submachine guns. The Italians would not have had some of the most well manufactured submachine guns if they were not "in to" them.

Those are not Italian pilots, that is why. They are German. This is a mixed German-Italian unit, which is specifically said in the briefing, the pilots are all Luftwaffe Feldwebels and at least one other man is wearing the uniform of a Luftwaffe Flakkorps Leutnant. One of the aircraft is clearly marked as German.

The reason the Panzerfaust was not used in North Africa is because it didn't exist. Also "Captain Bariselli" and his aide from that map, are wearing Italian SS insignia, of SS-Hauptsturmführer, senior enlisted. They had Italian SS volunteers at this time, but the full blown Italian SS wasn't created until after Italy surrendered. At least one of the reinforcements actually has an FS fighting knife. Which is another falsity, he would not have it, and it has a late pattern ring grip with an early pattern blade and ricasso.

The Panzerfaust 60 can be removed easily, as I have done from all "preexistence" maps, as well as all other weapons that need removal.

The jeep is perfectly accurate, it is not an SAS raiding vehicle, which would not be armed the way you say anyway, it is meant to be an LRDG jeep, which were bare just like this with a single M1919A4. It is not puny once given the correct firing rate. :mrgreen:

You are correct about the Bren Mk1 and it's counterpart the ZB39, mislabeled ZB24 in game. I have done just this, as well as fixing the magazine capacity of the ZB39 to the correct 20.

That is not a Panzer IV it is a Panzer III, an early III to be exact, an Ausf. E, with a 37mm gun, that by this time would have been non existent, as virtually all of them were up-gunned, definitely not sent to Africa. When I see maps named El Alamein, I vomit in my mind, if the Germans were still using this tank during that battle (at the time of the operation in game it was the second battle of El Alamein) it would have been a lot easier for the British. If the Germans had Tigers, well history would have gone another way.

The PIAT would not have been used by a unit like this, and then not until after July 1943. It was clumsy, inefficient, did not work as it was supposed to. It was a piece of shit, really. Better than nothing, but there were alternatives available to a unit like this. The bazooka that is in the game did not exist until after the war, it would not have been used by anyone.

The sounds are changed very easily, but the big problem is the slowed firing rate. It changes the way the weapon sounds more than you might think. I use a custom sound as well as have the weapon's firing rate increased.

As for the foray into Norway, the MG42s would not be the only anachronism. The most glaring is the eighty foot Elco, the motor torpedo boat. The missions are definitely taking place towards the end of 1942. Still if you are so concerned I hope you are not using those suppressed weapons, both inaccurately modeled, and didn't exist at the time of this operation, as well as many of the others that follow it.

For the No5, well it wouldn't have existed at the time the game claims the Burma missions to be taking place. It was not developed for another year, and was not fielded until a year after that. The second mission is basically a carbon copy of a battle that took place in Burma in January 1945, I like to go with this date, so it would work based on this, but in 1943, no Jungle Carbine, just as bad or worse than MG42s is 1941.

What you propose, adding new weapons to the game, would require anyone you want to play with to have the exact same mod. You would not be able to play on the internet anymore, you would crash here and there. It is easy to remove bad items from maps, but only if you are playing single player or on your own internet server.

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by Patchman123 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:19 pm

-ViTaMiHnM203- wrote:You are not completely off, and it is refreshing to see someone bothered by things like this, but you only address a few of the MANY anachronisms and you are wrong about a few issues...

Those are not P38s, they are P08s.

The Italians not using submachine guns is incorrect. They were issued submachine guns just as much as in any other nation, one per squad or about 9 men, which in game is not the case, too many submachine guns. The Italians would not have had some of the most well manufactured submachine guns if they were not "in to" them.

Those are not Italian pilots, that is why. They are German. This is a mixed German-Italian unit, which is specifically said in the briefing, the pilots are all Luftwaffe Feldwebels and at least one other man is wearing the uniform of a Luftwaffe Flakkorps Leutnant. One of the aircraft is clearly marked as German.

The reason the Panzerfaust was not used in North Africa is because it didn't exist. Also "Captain Bariselli" and his aide from that map, are wearing Italian SS insignia, of SS-Hauptsturmführer, senior enlisted. They had Italian SS volunteers at this time, but the full blown Italian SS wasn't created until after Italy surrendered. At least one of the reinforcements actually has an FS fighting knife. Which is another falsity, he would not have it, and it has a late pattern ring grip with an early pattern blade and ricasso.

The Panzerfaust 60 can be removed easily, as I have done from all "preexistence" maps, as well as all other weapons that need removal.

The jeep is perfectly accurate, it is not an SAS raiding vehicle, which would not be armed the way you say anyway, it is meant to be an LRDG jeep, which were bare just like this with a single M1919A4. It is not puny once given the correct firing rate. :mrgreen:

You are correct about the Bren Mk1 and it's counterpart the ZB39, mislabeled ZB24 in game. I have done just this, as well as fixing the magazine capacity of the ZB39 to the correct 20.

That is not a Panzer IV it is a Panzer III, an early III to be exact, an Ausf. E, with a 37mm gun, that by this time would have been non existent, as virtually all of them were up-gunned, definitely not sent to Africa. When I see maps named El Alamein, I vomit in my mind, if the Germans were still using this tank during that battle (at the time of the operation in game it was the second battle of El Alamein) it would have been a lot easier for the British. If the Germans had Tigers, well history would have gone another way.

The PIAT would not have been used by a unit like this, and then not until after July 1943. It was clumsy, inefficient, did not work as it was supposed to. It was a piece of shit, really. Better than nothing, but there were alternatives available to a unit like this. The bazooka that is in the game did not exist until after the war, it would not have been used by anyone.

The sounds are changed very easily, but the big problem is the slowed firing rate. It changes the way the weapon sounds more than you might think. I use a custom sound as well as have the weapon's firing rate increased.

As for the foray into Norway, the MG42s would not be the only anachronism. The most glaring is the eighty foot Elco, the motor torpedo boat. The missions are definitely taking place towards the end of 1942. Still if you are so concerned I hope you are not using those suppressed weapons, both inaccurately modeled, and didn't exist at the time of this operation, as well as many of the others that follow it.

For the No5, well it wouldn't have existed at the time the game claims the Burma missions to be taking place. It was not developed for another year, and was not fielded until a year after that. The second mission is basically a carbon copy of a battle that took place in Burma in January 1945, I like to go with this date, so it would work based on this, but in 1943, no Jungle Carbine, just as bad or worse than MG42s is 1941.

What you propose, adding new weapons to the game, would require anyone you want to play with to have the exact same mod. You would not be able to play on the internet anymore, you would crash here and there. It is easy to remove bad items from maps, but only if you are playing single player or on your own internet server.
The SAS used .50 caliber machine guns in real life. Exactly where the .30 caliber machine gun would be on the jeep in the game.
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/Armed_jeeps.html
Each jeep had a forward firing Browning HMG or Twinned Vickers Ks. The driver had a single Vickers K and there was another twin Vickers mounting on the rear of the jeep. Each Vickers K had a cyclic rate of 1,200 rpm and it is claimed they could cut a truck in two at 50yrds.
Okay, it was a Luger P08 pistol. It's ben so long since I played Hidden and Dangerous 2. My memory is a little rusty. I'd still like to mod it though. I have corrected the mistakes. I 'm sorry, I'm not very good at typing.

Wouldn't an SAS raiding vehicle make more sense for Spaghetti Airport? After all, you're raiding an airfield.
They had jeeps with .50 caliber machine guns in the back of the jeeps.


There are other anachronisms I'd like to address also. The Delisle Commando Carbine is used for the Norway mission, which is inaccurate because the weapon did not come until 1941.

I wonder about those German pilots in Spaghetti Airport. If they're German, how come they speak Italian? Wouldn't they speak German? It's their native language.In situations like that, people speak their native language because they know it the best, and it's more natural for them.

One airplane is clearly marked German and the rest are marked Italian. I've seen them. There is the matter of the German Panzer III tank I encounter. When I got on top of the tank at one time, I noticed that the crew of the German tank are speaking in Italian. Which I find rather odd, because they're supposedly supposed to be a German tank crew.

The Sten Gun is also an inaccuracy in the game. The Sten was not preferred by the SAS because it was a cheap-ass submachine gun that was thought not to be well made.

http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreig ... eapons.htm

I spotted another anachronism as well, concerning American weapons. The M1 Carbine was not used in SAS service until 1943 and you can use them in the 1941 Norway mission, which is also inaccurate.
I noticed other anachronisms as well, concerning Spaghetti airport. You can use the M1 Bazooka, which was not fully used until 1943 in North Africa. In North Africa, armies mostly used anti-tank rifles to take out enemy tanks.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z9IOUD ... le&f=false

SAS used Boys anti-tank rifles as well.

I wonder about Burma, I do not mean to be offensive here, I noticed that a British soldier can sneak into a Japanese fortified position and not get noticed while wearing a Japanese uniform in the Burma mission. This is wrong because the white face would be an instant give away because a white face is a dead giveaway to the Japanese that you are a enemy soldier. It's like saying "Hey, I'm an enemy soldier." Of course, when a Japanese sees someone in Burma with white European facial features, he thinks, "There's the enemy!" because the only people in the area with such facial features are British and American soldiers, which are their enemies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8KPfa7J ... re=related

I thought the Moschetto Beretta submachine gun was not made in large enough numbers due to Italy's limited industrial base.
The Italians used submachine guns, okay. I have corrected some the above mistakes I made the previous post.

http://historyofww2.webs.com/weaponsofitaly.htm

I'm sorry I messed up.

http://www.privateletters.net/equipment ... eguns.html

I think that the appropriate stationary machine gun for use by the Italians in the Spaghetti airport fortified position trenches would be the Breda Modello 37 machine gun. It was the standard machine gun for the Italian Army during the period. I think that would be appropriate to use that for the stationary machine gun for the Italians in the mission.


I was thinking of using the PIAT in later missions, like Normandy 1944 for example.


http://www.uboataces.com/weapon-antiaircraft.shtml

Another mistake I noticed in the game is the German u-boat uses a Flakvierling 20mm cannon in the 1941 Arctic Norway mission. The Flakvierling was not used on U-boats until 1943. This an anachronism because the U-boat is using a weapon that wasn't widely used on U-boats until 1943 when the mission in the Arctic takes place in 1941. At that time, U-boats used a single Flak 38 20mm cannon for air defense for the U-boats. At the beginning of the war, U-boats used a single 20mm cannon for anti-aircraft defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3pt7uyO ... st_related

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:19 pm

Well, you said "on top on the jeep in the passenger compartment," sounded like you were talking about something else. That position in game is not what I would consider the passenger compartment. Sure some were equipped with an M2, but not just that. There would have been stacks of fuel, ammunition, etcetera.

No, not necessarily, it is mainly for transportation, not gunning aircraft down. Though having more men would make more sense as well. These jeeps would not have been abundant, other units would have already been in the field using most available jeeps.

That is one of the suppressed weapons that I already pointed out to you, I'm assuming you mistyped the date, as it was late 1943.

I have never gotten that close to them, I'll have a listen next time I am in that position. That would just be a developmental oversight, they are German. I was pointing out that it is a mixed unit, and that you can clearly see that by the German marked aircraft.

Well they did use the MkII some, which is the model in the game, your link even states that. You can choose to not use the Sten, you are not forced to, as well as the other weapons that shouldn't be. I don't... It is still nice that it was included, you have the choice, as did they.

Well, I have already said that the Norway mission cannot be 1941, so that part is out, the carbine was manufactured at the time I proposed the mission is supposed to take place, though they probably wouldn't be using that weapon in the Arctic. Time and time again I have said the game does not depict an SAS unit, more like SOE. Even though, you can choose not to use the carbine.

As I said in my earlier post, that is not an M1 Bazooka, it is just mislabeled. It wouldn't have even have been in existence before the final year of the war, if that.

Well you got that about the Japanese uniforms, I have never actually used one as a disguise, don't do it if you think it is silly. You could just not get close to them, don't let them see your white face! Though there is/was an ethnicity that exists in Japan that has Caucasian features.

It sounds like you were thinking of the Japanese. What you described was the situation in the Japanese forces with submachine guns.

Well first off, again that mission cannot be taking place in 1941, it hasn't taken place in 1941, for me for at least six years. funny02 That boat is supposed to be a Type VIIF, sure officially you could count them all on your hand, and they were not launched until 1943, but this would be a prototype, it sure looks like it, and this is a secret instillation. Design started in 1941.

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by Patchman123 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:59 am

-ViTaMiHnM203- wrote:Well, you said "on top on the jeep in the passenger compartment," sounded like you were talking about something else. That position in game is not what I would consider the passenger compartment. Sure some were equipped with an M2, but not just that. There would have been stacks of fuel, ammunition, etcetera.

No, not necessarily, it is mainly for transportation, not gunning aircraft down. Though having more men would make more sense as well. These jeeps would not have been abundant, other units would have already been in the field using most available jeeps.

That is one of the suppressed weapons that I already pointed out to you, I'm assuming you mistyped the date, as it was late 1943.

I have never gotten that close to them, I'll have a listen next time I am in that position. That would just be a developmental oversight, they are German. I was pointing out that it is a mixed unit, and that you can clearly see that by the German marked aircraft.

Well they did use the MkII some, which is the model in the game, your link even states that. You can choose to not use the Sten, you are not forced to, as well as the other weapons that shouldn't be. I don't... It is still nice that it was included, you have the choice, as did they.

Well, I have already said that the Norway mission cannot be 1941, so that part is out, the carbine was manufactured at the time I proposed the mission is supposed to take place, though they probably wouldn't be using that weapon in the Arctic. Time and time again I have said the game does not depict an SAS unit, more like SOE. Even though, you can choose not to use the carbine.

As I said in my earlier post, that is not an M1 Bazooka, it is just mislabeled. It wouldn't have even have been in existence before the final year of the war, if that.

Well you got that about the Japanese uniforms, I have never actually used one as a disguise, don't do it if you think it is silly. You could just not get close to them, don't let them see your white face! Though there is/was an ethnicity that exists in Japan that has Caucasian features.

It sounds like you were thinking of the Japanese. What you described was the situation in the Japanese forces with submachine guns.

Well first off, again that mission cannot be taking place in 1941, it hasn't taken place in 1941, for me for at least six years. funny02 That boat is supposed to be a Type VIIF, sure officially you could count them all on your hand, and they were not launched until 1943, but this would be a prototype, it sure looks like it, and this is a secret instillation. Design started in 1941.
The mission briefing for the Norway mission said March 4, 1941. Well, I don't know about an ethnic group in Japan that has Caucasian features. I'm pretty sure they'd be a minority in the Japanese Army. :grin: They wouldn't see very many of them in service and wouldn't be very common in the army.


Oh yeah, I forgot. The Burma mission takes place in 1943. I forgot to transition between the two dates. :lol: The Spaghetti Airport mission takes place in 1942, right?

Oh and BTW the Italian flag used at Spaghetti airport is historically inaccurate because the Italian flag of the period had the coat of arms of the House of Savoy in the middle of the flag. The Italian flag used in the airfield was not used until after World War II.

http://flagspot.net/flags/it-king.html
I presume that this is the flag that would be flown at Spaghetti airport.


Okay, the Norway mission briefing said March 4, 1941 in the cutscene of the mission. The SAS also used the jeep for gunning down aircraft. That's why they added all those weapons on the jeep just for that very purpose. There were thousands of jeeps made during the war, I'm sure they weren't short of them, especially turning off of American assembly lines at record rates. :grin: They surely would have needed to upgun the jeep to raid airfields. They wouldn't have added guns to the jeeps if they weren't raiding airfields. They did use them for gunning down aircraft. That's what they were for. They say alot of Allied lives in the process and helped them achieve air superiority by destroying all those airplanes on the ground. They helped change the tactical situation and North Africa. It was quite effective, too.
The Axis planes couldn't take off during the day to harass Allied servicemen and make their lives miserable if the SAS were destroying their planes on the ground at night.

Like a Vickers K macine gun based on the Vickers Berthier light machine gun.




Oh and another thing. The pistols don't have iron sights. God, it would nice for the pistols to have iron sights to ACTUALLY aim the thing. :grin:

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:53 am

I don't dispute the unmodified game displays the date of March 1941, my point is that if it was one or two things, that would be anachronistic, there are just too many things that destroy the feasibility of an early 1941 date, that it is now the date that is the problem. It can't be seriously considered 1941 anymore.

Some part of the development got lots of details very nicely done, for example the uniforms. I'm convinced the people, or person, who designed the missions did not have their say in the date that was put into the texty. The Norway missions work as a late 1942 or 1943 operation. A late 1943 date actually makes more sense, as now the suppressed weapons would be available.

The current flag would have been correct for Mussolini's government after the surrender, so from 43 to 45. Correcting the flag for 1942 is easy enough, as long as you are good with picture editing. Though the fascist Italian armed forces used the state flag, apparently it was with a minor variation under fascism, I haven't been able to find any pictures yet. It should have two small fasces next to the HoS stemm. As for the Italian Air Force specifically, they had this flag, as per your link.

As for the jeeps... well, I called them raiding jeeps, but I really should have said armed jeeps. The reason for arming them was not for destroying airfields and planes. They were armed for protection. These jeeps were used for reconnaissance first off. Being behind enemy lines with few men and no chance of reinforcement you had to be able to overwhelm any enemy and flee. Of course the priority was to not even engage, but to make the enemy think you were there ally and drive along, which worked most of the time, because of the ranges involved.

It wasn't until after initial struggles destroying aircraft on foot, that they decided to use the weapons on jeeps driving through gunning everything up and then getting out of there. On the mission in question we are not there to destroy aircraft, we are trying to grab someone. Our jeep, on this mission, is not for gunning down aircraft, it is for transportation. If this was an airfield raid, we would have more men and more jeeps, and they were not as available as you might think in Africa. Initially the LRDG didn't have many jeeps at all, the SAS had priority and when the SAS had trouble with a jeep they just abandoned it, instead of trying to fix it, then the LRDG would go get it, fix it up, and add it to their inventory.

Even though, the point is that we are not part of the SAS unit that is running operations in Africa, we are a special unit, from the SAS or not, conducting operations where ever the powers that be need us. We couldn't just go grab an awesome jeep from an SAS patrol, even then we might not want to, it might be more prudent to go on with a lightly armed jeep of the LRDG. :mrgreen: It was the LRDG's responsibility to provide insertion capabilities for special units, even after the SAS got their own jeeps.

The pistols do have iron sights, you just can't use them!

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by Patchman123 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:01 am

-ViTaMiHnM203- wrote:I don't dispute the unmodified game displays the date of March 1941, my point is that if it was one or two things, that would be anachronistic, there are just too many things that destroy the feasibility of an early 1941 date, that it is now the date that is the problem. It can't be seriously considered 1941 anymore.

Some part of the development got lots of details very nicely done, for example the uniforms. I'm convinced the people, or person, who designed the missions did not have their say in the date that was put into the texty. The Norway missions work as a late 1942 or 1943 operation. A late 1943 date actually makes more sense, as now the suppressed weapons would be available.

The current flag would have been correct for Mussolini's government after the surrender, so from 43 to 45. Correcting the flag for 1942 is easy enough, as long as you are good with picture editing. Though the fascist Italian armed forces used the state flag, apparently it was with a minor variation under fascism, I haven't been able to find any pictures yet. It should have two small fasces next to the HoS stemm. As for the Italian Air Force specifically, they had this flag, as per your link.

As for the jeeps... well, I called them raiding jeeps, but I really should have said armed jeeps. The reason for arming them was not for destroying airfields and planes. They were armed for protection. These jeeps were used for reconnaissance first off. Being behind enemy lines with few men and no chance of reinforcement you had to be able to overwhelm any enemy and flee. Of course the priority was to not even engage, but to make the enemy think you were there ally and drive along, which worked most of the time, because of the ranges involved.

It wasn't until after initial struggles destroying aircraft on foot, that they decided to use the weapons on jeeps driving through gunning everything up and then getting out of there. On the mission in question we are not there to destroy aircraft, we are trying to grab someone. Our jeep, on this mission, is not for gunning down aircraft, it is for transportation. If this was an airfield raid, we would have more men and more jeeps, and they were not as available as you might think in Africa. Initially the LRDG didn't have many jeeps at all, the SAS had priority and when the SAS had trouble with a jeep they just abandoned it, instead of trying to fix it, then the LRDG would go get it, fix it up, and add it to their inventory.

Even though, the point is that we are not part of the SAS unit that is running operations in Africa, we are a special unit, from the SAS or not, conducting operations where ever the powers that be need us. We couldn't just go grab an awesome jeep from an SAS patrol, even then we might not want to, it might be more prudent to go on with a lightly armed jeep of the LRDG. :mrgreen: It was the LRDG's responsibility to provide insertion capabilities for special units, even after the SAS got their own jeeps.

The pistols do have iron sights, you just can't use them!

Okay then,
where are the picture files so I can edit them? How do I make models of certain weapons? I am not real familiar with coding processes used for such things.

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:44 am

Well, first you will need to extract the .dta files. You will need a .dta extractor. I am assuming you do not have SS? You will need this unpacker. Running it could be difficult for you if you are not familiar with how command prompts work. When you have extracted them, the non-SS files are: ii_it01.bmp, ii_it02.bmp, ii_it03.bmp, ii_it_brigaf.bmp, ii_it_helmaf.bmp, and g_af1_042.bmp. Then all you need to do is modify them and then create a new folder in the main HD2 directory named Maps, and the game will read files from it first.

As for the models files, well that is going to be extremely tough, first let us see if you can handle modifying the flags. :mrgreen:

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by Patchman123 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:28 pm

-ViTaMiHnM203- wrote:Well, first you will need to extract the .dta files. You will need a .dta extractor. I am assuming you do not have SS? You will need this unpacker. Running it could be difficult for you if you are not familiar with how command prompts work. When you have extracted them, the non-SS files are: ii_it01.bmp, ii_it02.bmp, ii_it03.bmp, ii_it_brigaf.bmp, ii_it_helmaf.bmp, and g_af1_042.bmp. Then all you need to do is modify them and then create a new folder in the main HD2 directory named Maps, and the game will read files from it first.

As for the models files, well that is going to be extremely tough, first let us see if you can handle modifying the flags. :mrgreen:
Which .dta files do I extract? Where are they?

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by Patchman123 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:00 pm

-ViTaMiHnM203- wrote:Well, you said "on top on the jeep in the passenger compartment," sounded like you were talking about something else. That position in game is not what I would consider the passenger compartment. Sure some were equipped with an M2, but not just that. There would have been stacks of fuel, ammunition, etcetera.

No, not necessarily, it is mainly for transportation, not gunning aircraft down. Though having more men would make more sense as well. These jeeps would not have been abundant, other units would have already been in the field using most available jeeps.

That is one of the suppressed weapons that I already pointed out to you, I'm assuming you mistyped the date, as it was late 1943.

I have never gotten that close to them, I'll have a listen next time I am in that position. That would just be a developmental oversight, they are German. I was pointing out that it is a mixed unit, and that you can clearly see that by the German marked aircraft.

Well they did use the MkII some, which is the model in the game, your link even states that. You can choose to not use the Sten, you are not forced to, as well as the other weapons that shouldn't be. I don't... It is still nice that it was included, you have the choice, as did they.

Well, I have already said that the Norway mission cannot be 1941, so that part is out, the carbine was manufactured at the time I proposed the mission is supposed to take place, though they probably wouldn't be using that weapon in the Arctic. Time and time again I have said the game does not depict an SAS unit, more like SOE. Even though, you can choose not to use the carbine.

As I said in my earlier post, that is not an M1 Bazooka, it is just mislabeled. It wouldn't have even have been in existence before the final year of the war, if that.

Well you got that about the Japanese uniforms, I have never actually used one as a disguise, don't do it if you think it is silly. You could just not get close to them, don't let them see your white face! Though there is/was an ethnicity that exists in Japan that has Caucasian features.

It sounds like you were thinking of the Japanese. What you described was the situation in the Japanese forces with submachine guns.

Well first off, again that mission cannot be taking place in 1941, it hasn't taken place in 1941, for me for at least six years. funny02 That boat is supposed to be a Type VIIF, sure officially you could count them all on your hand, and they were not launched until 1943, but this would be a prototype, it sure looks like it, and this is a secret instillation. Design started in 1941.
The mission briefing for the Norway mission said March 4, 1941. Well, I don't know about an ethnic group in Japan that has Caucasian features. I'm pretty sure they'd be a minority in the Japanese Army. :grin: They wouldn't see very many of them in service and wouldn't be very common in the army.


Oh yeah, I forgot. The Burma mission takes place in 1943. I forgot to transition between the two dates. :lol: The Spaghetti Airport mission takes place in 1942, right?

Oh and BTW the Italian flag used at Spaghetti airport is historically inaccurate because the Italian flag of the period had the coat of arms of the House of Savoy in the middle of the flag. The Italian flag used in the airfield was not used until after World War II.

http://flagspot.net/flags/it-king.html
I presume that this is the flag that would be flown at Spaghetti airport.


Okay, the Norway mission briefing said March 4, 1941 in the cutscene of the mission. The SAS also used the jeep for gunning down aircraft. That's why they added all those weapons on the jeep just for that very purpose. There were thousands of jeeps made during the war, I'm sure they weren't short of them, especially turning off of American assembly lines at record rates. :grin: They surely would have needed to upgun the jeep to raid airfields. They wouldn't have added guns to the jeeps if they weren't raiding airfields. They did use them for gunning down aircraft. That's what they were for. They say alot of Allied lives in the process and helped them achieve air superiority by destroying all those airplanes on the ground. They helped change the tactical situation and North Africa. It was quite effective, too.
The Axis planes couldn't take off during the day to harass Allied servicemen and make their lives miserable if the SAS were destroying their planes on the ground at night.

Like a Vickers K macine gun based on the Vickers Berthier light machine gun.




Oh and another thing. The pistols don't have iron sights. God, it would nice for the pistols to have iron sights to ACTUALLY aim the thing. :grin:


Yes, I know Burma takes place in 1943. The Japanese could detect a white face at distance because their soldiers are trained observers and trained observers are trained to spot fine details. It would not be hard for them to spot at all. That would give you away as an Allied soldier instantly if they say you.

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:36 pm

The description explains how to use it... :arrow:

Why did you post that again? :?:

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by Duke0196 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:24 am

Patchman123 wrote:Oh yeah, I forgot. The Burma mission takes place in 1943. I forgot to transition between the two dates. :lol: The Spaghetti Airport mission takes place in 1942, right?
Correct, 17 Nov 1942. Operation Nomad takes place 17-18 Nov. It was a shame that the developers didn't put time into providing the Italians were their own weapons. I too have heard "Italians" speaking in the tank. I wonder if that is the same case in the "Chesnut" mission. [Sabre Squadron mission during Operation Husky].

Anyway, as Vit stated the developers gave a nod to a battle which actually took place in Jan 1945. It was the Battle of Hill 170 which they even state "coordinate 170" in the "Mountain King" briefing. The Burma campaign is my favorite since I prefer Pacific War-based missions / games. It would have been nice to have a jungle carbine ... if anything to be able to use a different weapon. Then again Vit and I have discussed in other threads that the developers were a bit lenient when it came to weapons and their use as it applied to the missions/campaigns.

Man, it really would be nice to fire the Bren from standing and kneeling. :sad:

Later ... thup01
Last edited by Duke0196 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:45 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:00 am

I think that part was rhetorical. :mrgreen:

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by Duke0196 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:50 am

No worries Vit. I wasn't finished with my post. I sometimes hit the "Submit" instead of "Save Draft" button and realize it when I come back a little later. :oops:

Either way, I've still enjoyed this thread. While you may have a lousy bedside manner :lol: I do find some of your historical info most interesting. So in that aspect ... thanks from this ole vet Vit. thup01

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Re: Italian Weapons Mod/Accuracy Mod

Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:10 am

Duke0196 wrote:the developers gave a nod to a battle which actually took place in Jan 1945
It is more than just a nod! We are definitely taking part in that battle; right down to having only one Sherman left and the indiscriminate artillery barrage!
Duke0196 wrote:the developers were a bit lenient when it came to weapons and their use as it applied to the missions/campaigns.
I think the issue was balance and ease of play, decided by a later influence, at least they had a good reason, not good enough for me, but logically sound... they needed specific weapons to tackle missions in the easiest way possible. Well... at least you can not use them, and then they are no problem.

The Arctic missions particularly show two influences for the mission, I think good evidence of that being the name of the operation, changed from Blizzard to Snowball, after the briefings had been finished. I'm hoping the same people are responsible for the mislabeling of the submarine as a "U-58," which it is not. There was a Type IIC, designated U-58, and it was captained by whom they say it was in the briefing, until about a month after the given mission date, but that boat is not a IIC.

What annoys me the most is the scattered usage of the SeG 42, since I don't want to go through every file looking for it, I just wait til I see it on a body and then remove it. I don't actively look for it, but other than that it is like an Easter egg hunt. They don't even ever use it, it is just there as a big smack in the face... :lol:

The SeG 42 or SG 42, S 42, Seitengewehr 42... is the "German knife" hanging from various Germans. It is actually a bayonet with multitool stored in the belly of the handle. First trials at the end of 1943, only a couple thousand were made, sent to the eastern front and special units. The version in game is of the last version, which would have been manufactured towards the end and was the most rare. So believable to see a few on the Czech missions, but not fine to see in Libya.
Duke0196 wrote:Man, it really would be nice to fire the Bren from standing and kneeling.
Well if you truly want that, maybe I can send you my mod sometime. funny01 :mrgreen: Though there are added limitations and restrictions as well to be thorough. Do you still play the game regularly?

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