the surrender issue

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synchro
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the surrender issue

Unread post by synchro » Wed May 06, 2009 3:28 am

if i was a gerry soldier and a heavily armed, determined, mean SOB stormed into a room  and i didnt have  my gun at the ready...
i WOULD surremder if, by some miracle, i wasn't actually dead. think about it...

to me it's quite a bug getting obviusly outgunned and surrounded troop to put up their hands and say 'kamarade'.

for all it's complexity and obviously brilliant approach to ww2 gaming, it's just mad that you can't sneak up to a gerry and hold a knife to his throat or point a weapon threateningly to get him to surrender - in certain obvious circumstances, of course.
another ability that SHOULD have been added was the 'interrogation'. obv it would be scriptd but those that weren't could've had simple name, rank and serial number replies. such a shame.

whe this game came out i was overwhelmed by the tactical side [still annoys me tho and can be confusing] but the fact i could climb in vehicles, operate fixed weapons, tanks etc AS WELL AS EARN XP  [deffo one of the best ideas for hd2] put this game as one of the best i've ever played. and i bought it on the day of release WITH the early bugs.

but, it'sbeen a long time since i played this great game and once again i'm still bewildered by impossibility of getting enemies to surrender. i'm on the first mission /2 solo with andy harris and cleared the first floor of enemies and one scientists was crouching terrified and i could not access his weapon/inventory. space bar did nothnig so i knifed him hoping to nick his labcoat knowing the lower floor was crawling with germans and neading a disguise. i'm determined to finish this mission wo setting off the alarm and the most likely hope of nicking a german uniform is the guy painting in a hall to left of main doors [not far from scientist and photo opportunity 3 and extra mission opjective to blow stores] but to get there i'dhave to kill almost all of grmans based there anyway!!

isn't there a behavioural mod for the AI for surrendering? units such as sas behind enemy lines surely would make it their first objective to wear enemy clothing whilst  sneaking around heavily defended positions?

and firing gun at their feet does NOT work. sneaking all 4 guys behind unsuspecting target in defensive mode then firing at feet AGAIN doesn't work. they suicidally reach for gun and bang! they're... bloodstained uniform no use.

i got another question about something whichi am about to post because i don't have manual anymore [i'm just made up i can run this game in  full detail maxed out on my old 3200 amd w 1gb ram and geforce 7600GS w 256 vram.. when i bought this i had a 1700 AMD w 512mb memory and old ATI card.. the only annoying thing is i can't dig out sabre squadron... i bought the 2 in one pack a few years ago but lent it out and never saw it again].

still a great game tho.

thnx
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Jason
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Re: the surrender issue

Unread post by Jason » Wed May 06, 2009 7:12 am

I do agree that the surrendering capabilities of the AI are limited. They definitely don't surrender in all the situations that they should. I think if your own men could be taken prisoner in certain situations as well. There needs to be a game that opens up these issues of human-AI interactions. We as humans don't just shoot at each other and that is it. We do give chances to surrender, on both sides. Some people do surrender, some don't. We do take prisoners and we can escape ;)

Hopefully 2k Czech will be the company to develop such great gameplay. Can't wait to see the technical capabilities of Mafia 2, it will show us what they could do for a H&D3 :mrgreen:
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-ViTaMiHnM203-
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Re: the surrender issue

Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Wed May 06, 2009 12:06 pm

Well, by the time of the African campaign, the Germans were aware of "commandos" and were told that these men were criminals and execute everyone as to not be tied down by a prisoner's burden. They surrender and they expect to die with their hands behind their back. Plus of course the standing order that went along with that advice, to execute commandos on sight.

On the mission you are talking about, you have your first line gear, second line gear, third line gear. It would be trouble undressing the prisoner and your self and hiding all that gear. Not likely. It is easier to just take them all down before they hit the alarms. I routinely go through that mission solo and they never get to the alarms, while I am using an M1. Since of course the suppressed weapons in the game did not exist in 1941. It should take you less than three minutes after your first shot is fired to have the opposition neutralized with no alarms having been triggered.

Sneaking around heavily defended positions was not really the SAS's thing, it was more direct action and then retreat. Most of the missions in this game would better fit the SOE. Especially since again there was no SAS before 1942. The training map takes place is 1940 in July I think, one week after the SOE was created. If these units intended to be sneaking around in disguise they would have deployed wearing what they needed. They would have had these things in inventory.

So as unrealistic as you think the non surrendering is and not sneaking around in disguise is, it actually isn't.

You say you haven't gotten SS? We can play this map in coop and take it down together. Ask Jason to send you a copy. :mrgreen:
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Re: the surrender issue

Unread post by Jason » Wed May 06, 2009 1:21 pm

Well, by the time of the African campaign, the Germans were aware of "commandos" and were told that these men were criminals and execute everyone as to not be tied down by a prisoner's burden. They surrender and they expect to die with their hands behind their back. Plus of course the standing order that went along with that advice, to execute commandos on sight.
Oh yeah that's right funny02

... but let's not forget it is just a game ;)

For sneaking around Death to Spies is the better game. I don't think they have surrendering enemies though. The sequel is coming out later this year - DTS Moment of Truth.

As for Sabre Squadron, I'm still trying to get my hands on a few copies to run a competition! Not an easy addon to find.

They should maybe expand Hidden and Dangerous to be SOE and SBS. At least then they could have the different style of missions. Maybe for H&D3 they can do the first H&D3 game as SAS then have 2 expansion packs ;)

Ahhh... if only...
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Re: the surrender issue

Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Thu May 07, 2009 11:36 am

I think it was already expanded to be SOE and SBS, they just were too lazy to change anything from SAS. funny01 When I play the game I do not think "I am in the SAS!", I think "I am in the SOE!". :P

What type of comp were you gonna run? Please don't have extraneously unrealistic rules! no_01 no_02
Last edited by -ViTaMiHnM203- on Thu May 07, 2009 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jason
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Re: the surrender issue

Unread post by Jason » Thu May 07, 2009 5:21 pm

What type of comp were you gonna run?
Not 100% sure on the details. Probably would have had a few different things like, Q/A, guess the picture... H&D related stuff most likely. Open to suggestions :mrgreen:
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synchro
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Re: the surrender issue

Unread post by synchro » Mon May 18, 2009 8:20 pm

SAS, SOE, CIA, HSB, whatever. if the guys at 2k do decide to do HD3 i hope they think a little more about the AI and surrender. EG, 'Thief' 1, 2 and 3 had difficulties involving killing as few ppl as possible. ok, that was fantasy based game - and not tactical/team - but it gave me some interesting ways to approach a mission. i realise that WW2 is just not likely to have that option but some thought put into it would be nice.

and as for finding sabre squadron? found a 2nd hand copy online but they wanted ?9 for it. considering it was prolly scratched to buggery i didn't want to waste my money. had too many bad experiences with buying 2nd hand stuff online.
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Jason
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Re: the surrender issue

Unread post by Jason » Tue May 19, 2009 1:34 pm

and as for finding sabre squadron? found a 2nd hand copy online but they wanted ?9 for it. considering it was prolly scratched to buggery i didn't want to waste my money. had too many bad experiences with buying 2nd hand stuff online.
Take the chance, it's H&D! you got to think more positively about the outcome thup01
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crusti
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Re: the surrender issue

Unread post by crusti » Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:35 pm

try CEX online, sabresquadron is only ?2.50, theres quite a few shops now spread all over the England, 6 in N.I. 1 in Edinburgh, Scotland, 3 in Spain and 6 or 7 in the U.S.
try this link
for Sabre Squadron on its own try
http://www.cex.co.uk/products/Gaming/PC ... ame=Hidden and Dangerous 2 - Sabre Squadron&mode=buy

or for Courage under Fire (includes hd2 + SS)

http://www.cex.co.uk/products/Gaming/PC ... ame=Hidden and Dangerous 2 Gold - Courage Un&mode=buy

when i just looked there wasnt any available online, but theres plenty available in a shops in the list at the right of the page. i guess you could try emailing the stores that have it and offer to pay postage (maybe)

i don't work for them but i used to use them all the time , but not alot now as they used to do great deals on trade ins, as you see theyll give you only ?1 tradeing SS for another game, and not to worry about scatching as they do a 12month replacement guarentee.

happy sabresquadron hunting
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jacobston
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Re: the surrender issue

Unread post by jacobston » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:57 am

I wish you could sneak up behind enemies and knock them unconscious, and I also wish that after i capture people, I could move them, and use them as hostages to get out of a sticky situation.
Another feature, along the same lines, is that I wish tank crews would get out of their tanks after a while, especially in the desert, exposed to the sun.
-ViTaMiHnM203- wrote:When I play the game I do not think "I am in the SAS!", I think "I am in the SOE!"
I watch a lot of TV and movies, so I think "I am in the Rat Patrol!", or "I'm in Kelly's Heroes!"

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Re: the surrender issue

Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:12 am

:mrgreen:
Eight, 8, the burning eight; between Sunday and Monday exists a day so great, it will devastate. :twisted:

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