In defence of MINES

This is for general discussion about Hidden & Dangerous 2, talk about what you liked or what you didn't like about the sequel. Talk about multiplayer games, setup matches etc.
TomStone
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In defence of MINES

Unread post by TomStone » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:17 pm

Hi all.

What is all this fuss surrounding the use of mines with the on-line community? I think this matter deserves some discussion because it seems to me to be more than just a matter of taste. There is real, vocal opposition to their use and I see an increasing number of (particularly Deathmatch) servers either stating 'No Mines' or kicking you for daring to bring the tone of the game down with their use.

It's exhasperating. Much as I enjoy Co-op and Occupation, they come into their own when played with organised, communicating groups. I never get to do that. Thus I can be found mainly on the Deathmatch servers which, for the most part, I enjoy.

Something I also enjoy is laying down mines in corridors. I get a quite a rush of excitement because it renders you defenceless for a few seconds and so you have to choose your moment carefully. The sound of approaching footsteps can be terrifying because the animation can't, as far as I know, be interrupted. Then there's the satisfaction of hearing that distant, muffled explosion and seeing the kill message. However it's invariably followed by a warning that anyone using mines will be
banned! :evil:

So, what's up with mines? What difference does it really make if you are sniped by someone hiding across the other side of the map or lose a limb from a carefully placed mine? Why this snobbery about their use? Is it, as I suspect, that some find the lack of skill involved appalling? Becasue I haven't looked down the barrel of my weapon or tracked you through the sights then the kill is somehow less valid. Rubbish! I took considerable risk, leaving myself open to attack, whilst I set it down. Just because I might be involved in some other action when you finally step on it doesn't mean it's unfair.

Perhaps they should look at their surroundings more carefully. One of the great aspects of the H&D game, Campaign and MP, is that you can easily spend much of your time time just waiting for the enemy to be in the right place at the right time. You'll be camped in bushes or on a hill or in a room behind a window. There'll be sporadic pockets of fighting here and there but often, when there are fewer than, say, 15 players on a good-sized map, you'll have time to take in your surroundings. You'll probably find yourself squinting at any movement off in the distance or tensing at sudden bursts of fire somewhere close. You'll have your eyes trained un-moving from salient points. But how often do you take the time to look down at the floor? Naturally most people have given up worrying about it since using mines is such bad manners. But players should instinctively take this into account. The mindset should have been: Mines are an option, they might be used, therfore I should lookout for their tell-tale shape on the floor. My point here is that H&D isn't necessarily a 'twitch' game. This allows for more consideration of your environment, even in Deathmatch. And it's a CORRIDOR!! Naturally you should expect mines to be layed in them.

I read over on the other H&D forum (frequented by the DBV - great forum, btw, great guys there too) that someone resented noobs or kids coming in, laying mines all over the place and scoring cheap kills. This might be a popular complaint. I think this a purists complaint, though. People who, quite rightly, appreciate their, and other's, prowess with a rifle don't like stepping out from their bush right onto a mine. Like impact granades they can be seen as 'cheap' kills. For me though it adds an element of the unpredictable to the game. And, after all, they are there to be used by anyone. In fairness, I can't claim to ever have seen huge clusters of mines laying around. Normally it's that one or two right where you should've expected them.

Ther are certainly things that I feel are annoying, though. Mining a spawn point, like spawn campers who sit there with a sub machine gun or impact granade, are missing the point of the game and should be rounded-up and shot. At very least immediately kicked once their plan is discovered. These individuals give people like me a bad reputation and have caused, I think, this popular mistrust of mines.

The fact is that they can be very hard to spot (just like that sniper up on the hill in the bushes, eh?) Not impossible, just tricky when you're busy listening, and nervously looking around you or running from one spot of cover to the next. But they can be seen. Once you've identified them you find you can spot them every time, if you've looked. I like the slower paced games and mines really help bring the tempo down. If I wanted twitch run 'n gun I'd go play Halo or Call of Duty. I believe that H&D was intended to be played with all due consideration. That should include scanning occasionally for mines.

So, what do you all think about mines in the game and thier use?

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In defence of MINES

Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:33 am

Pft, LoL...

I basically never have to play with them...

I dont like the mines, I have them disabled in my maplist...

Becuz, they can be put inside solid flooring...

I wouldnt mind if they just sat there on the floor, but since they are unrealistically placed inside the floor; I hate them...

I think they are pussy kills when they are inside the floor, not when they are realistically placed...

I agree with you on the mindset issue, but I dispise it when people teach strangers how to think...

Those are my enemies you are hinting...
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Alexander
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In defence of MINES

Unread post by Alexander » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:40 pm

whot? i only had time to read the word: "mine's" and my conclussion is:

Mines are for idiots who THINK they can play and run areound bragging that they got 100 kills.... (but as well as they got 342 deaths.... *sigh* )
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Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:36 pm

Expected from an admin of your caliber... :twisted:
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TomStone
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In defence of MINES

Unread post by TomStone » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:33 pm

[quote=""?NR?Alexander""]whot? i only had time to read the word: "mine's" and my conclussion is:

Mines are for idiots who THINK they can play and run areound bragging that they got 100 kills.... (but as well as they got 342 deaths.... *sigh* )[/quote]

Well personally I'm no idiot, nor do I run around bragging about multiple kills :) But this is just the sort of, if I may say so, attitude that I have written about. There is this pervading sense that a kill from a mine is less valid. Perhaps you feel more comfortable in the knowledge that you've been either sniped or shot in a duel.

For a start you can only lay a limited number of mines at any one time so this myth about 'idiots' coming in and flooding areas for cheep kills isn't really a strong argument against mines. I think the attitude of many players stems from the fact that you really have to look for them. Alot of people approach this game as, like I mentioned before, 'twitch' gaming. It isn't. H&D was developed as a stealth game, imo. It rewards patience and picking off enemies at distance, with occasional close combat. Mines can very easily be spotted (even though they get partially hidden in floorboards as pointed out by another poster), but you have to look. I just think that it's an extra drain on the senses that people just can't be bothered with. You've just spent 5 minutes sneaking down a corridor then step on a mine you hadn't noticed. It bugs you. You blame 'noobs'. You get pissed off and start yelling about how mines ruin the game. Sorry, not you personally, just people :wink:

Yes, some players do play unfairly by mining spawn points, just as spawn campers ruin it.

But it isn't the mines that bring the game down. It's how they have been used by a few people. And not even everyone. All it takes it a little more awareness.

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Drozdov
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In defence of MINES

Unread post by Drozdov » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:21 am

Err, you say you should expect a mine in a corridor? Ok, was unaware that it was realistic for mines to be buried in stone... Perhaps in an elaborately prepared booby trap with trip wires you'd get something like a mine in a corridor, but not some stupid little tab thing sticking out of concrete that results in death if you go anywhere near it.

There are many other things about mines in H&D that annoy the hell out of me. For a start, 9/10 mines are more likely to cause a team kill than kill an enemy. You'll notice this most on Czech 3 - people insist on mining the villa in public servers, sometimes even mining the door before everyone has got out/in. And every time the villa is heavily mined, you can guarantee there will be more than one casualty on their own team. Yet they never seem to learn. Mines destroy the ability of the axis team to defend on Czech 3.

Mines are also totally invisible in many locations, such as in the hut in Arctic 3. You can't see their tabs, you can only 'see' them if you go prone and look at the floor until you see the mine's white outline.

I have less problems with mines placed in more realistic areas, such as on the trees in Burma 2. Sure, it's annoying to get blown up by them, but as you say it's annoying to get killed by a gun also, and it's more annoying to be killed by a grenade. Can't really argue with a well positioned mine that you could have avoided. It's the ones you can't avoid or see that spoil the game. Please tell me you don't think mining the ladders in Burma 2 is fair - there is absolutely nothing an allied player can do if the Japanese hide in the bunkers are put mines under the ladders. Totally unfair and totally unfun, can't justify it in a game.

Mines are not fun, not fair, obnoxious, and hugely buggy. But aside from that, they're great.
"Nothing is more dangerous than a resourceful idiot."

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Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:10 am

There is a way to defuse those mines in Burma 2...
Eight, 8, the burning eight; between Sunday and Monday exists a day so great, it will devastate. :twisted:

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Drozdov
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Unread post by Drozdov » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:46 am

Yes, run like a madman and jump over the opening. Due to the mine collision system, which ignores the Z axis when determining if you've come into contact with the mine, you can set mines off by going under/over them. So if you jump over a mine, it'll go kaboom. But quite often you get killed on the way over.
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Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:27 pm

LoL, I said defuse...
Eight, 8, the burning eight; between Sunday and Monday exists a day so great, it will devastate. :twisted:

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Drozdov
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Unread post by Drozdov » Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:53 pm

There's no way to defuse them if they're placed properly. Unless there's some glitch, but I thought you played realistically.
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Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:57 am

There is nuthing unrealistic about haveing sum1 grab your legs as you hang over...
Eight, 8, the burning eight; between Sunday and Monday exists a day so great, it will devastate. :twisted:

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Drozdov
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Unread post by Drozdov » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:48 am

Umm, ok, whatever.
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Unread post by -ViTaMiHnM203- » Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:15 am

Um; ok, whatever...

Whats your name?
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Oldih
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In defence of MINES

Unread post by Oldih » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:29 am

For a note, yes H&D2 mines can be placed in corridors etc. Same applies for H&DD\H&D original, you can place mines everywhere you want. Also Operation Flashpoint has same thing, you can place almost everywhere you want. (only with a script or trigger you can *create* *realistical* mines)

So in other words, making realistical mines that they have to be set underground, is not the most simplest one. Only game I know with somewhat realistical mines is Wolfenstein - Enemy Territory because you cannot see them (unless covert ops spot them), until you step on one. If you step on one and stop moving, it does not blow up but you need to jump pretty fast or get an engineer to there, and putting a mine to ground needs engineer to put a mine and arm it, so after that, your team sees them but your enemy cannot unless covert op spots them to their team.

And TomStone, nice post indeed, and in someway, I agree. Mines are in game, and often avaible, so why not use them? They are annoying and in MP, also causes common whining around, but in SP, it is very fun to mine some paths and let the enemy to step on them.
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Drozdov
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Unread post by Drozdov » Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:32 am

Um; ok, whatever...

Whats your name?
:?
"Nothing is more dangerous than a resourceful idiot."

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