Sabre Squadron question

[Capt. Stirling]

"Inaccuracies that are not possible, I don't like. " Couldn't agree more.

Remember we've only been talking about the first mission. Things like the Allgemeine uniforms being worn throughout the game, the date for the Blade Dancer mission set in May not June, the lack of equipment and proper weaponry mounted on the desert jeeps for treks through Cyrenaica, etc. I'm not simply interested in changing the 'things I care about.' I've undertaken to change as you said, 'things that are impossible' and to add some connection of certain missions to each other.

An interesting mistake is the Sumava forest. Its location on the border between then Czechoslovakia and Germany was well inside the U.S. occupation zone. So no Russian units much less Waffen SS holdouts were present in the area. I've changed locations of those missions to accommodate the factors in those missions and the Karlovy, Pilsen, Ceske Budenovice U.S. stop line.

Me 262's first test flight with the piston engine was conducted in april of 41 due to the jet engine not having been completed. The original order and design model called for the BMW 003 engine. But that is a moot point since both of us already agree for several reasons that the mission should take place in mid-late 1942. Its seems like the Claymore fanboy also wrote the script for the intro narration since the March 4 41 date is the first thing out of the character's mouth.

Whoa! You've managed to get the cap comforter in your inventory? The one that the Dakota's doorman is wearing? Did you edit the scripting yourself? I'd love that for the inventory! I don't understand why it wasn't included in the first place.

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

That uniform was still being worn through out the war, it is few and far between really. I can only really remember the times in Op.Liberator it is worn. The desert jeep not having heavier armament is not a stretch either. The jeep only has the two fuel cans, they are running light, this isn't a raiding jeep. The half-tracks just don't have MGs mounted, some idiot took them off. When in a tank, you just don't feel like using coaxial MGs, or you are too low on ammo. These are things that actually can be fixed, but will cause problems for people that don't have the files.

In the final half of Liberator you are near the border with Poland, at Broumov, while it is true for the first half that you are within an allied area of operations, the allies only liberated the western part of Bohemia, the west of Prague. The rest was Russian.

The Me262 airframe with the prop had sanitary wings. Not this airframe in the complex. The second version still had a prop as back up. Not this airframe either! The first test flight of the Me262 with jet engines and no prop was in July 42! The narration was probably done by the same guy writing the texty. Don't forget this tidbit is not true for me.

As for the cap comforter, for a few years now, the problem is in the model, it is just invisible as far as I know, can you see it on the crew in the back of the C-47? You don't need to edit it into your inventory to use, just in the maplist, as long as you fix the model file. Same with the Czech railwayman uniform hat. What I haven't been able to "fix" yet is the "civilian hat", it is backwards and I don't know how to reverse the model. So many nice things that were not looked over before they rushed the game out!

[Capt. Stirling]

I was suggesting that the desert jeep have more features typical of an LRDG or SAS vehicle. Of course there are basic versions that could make extended treks through the desert. There's a famous signal corps photo of three tattered G.I.'s returning from being trapped the 3 days behind the Kasserine advance. But one must admit that while the current jeep is not inaccurate, it certainly would have been better to have some Vickers K's on there  or perhaps some extra 30's or a Lewis Gun. Same with the SS uniforms. Sabre Squadron uses it in France 1944 too. A parade uniform by that point. Improbable, not impossible.

The Liberator mission as a whole is ridiculously disjointed. While Broumov is near the Polish border, the Lipatokov rail station is deep inside Slovakia near Poland too. But the final brief and original mission description clearly states that the bunker is located in the Sumava forest on the German Czech border well inside the U.S. occupation zone. For the end sequence you need to be in Russian territory.

Me 262's first test flight with the piston engine was conducted in april of 41 due to the jet engine not having been completed.

I didn't say the jet engines were included in the first test flight. I said that the aircraft since its original order was placed, was designed for jet propulsion and the BMW 003 was selected early on so models would have included the engines. The piston engine was a substitute since the BMW wasn't finished construction for the first test in 1941 not design.

Yeah I can see the cap comforter for the jump master in the opening sequence. That's the only time I see it in game. Its included in Fredrick Mallory's profile pic though. So its invisible you say? Damn, is it possible to replace the beret or some other head gear in the loadout section with the comforter through scripting?

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

While I want more features on the jeep as well, I'm just saying it is not a stretch from possible, it is clearly plausible that the team in HD2 was supplied with an unmodified jeep, and they made very quick modifications to it. On the Libya mission, of course they are supposed to be LRDG jeeps, and the LRDG jeeps would look like that, a single machine gun and only two cans. Further proof we are not supposed to be SAS, that was just the most prominent name people would know.

The black uniform, was, in 1944, still being used by curtain SS units and reserve officers.

The point of the story in Liberator is that they are running around, some times fourteen hours between missions. At the time of this operation the US had just entered the country and the Soviets pushed well into the ?umava region there.

Yeah, but they weren't. The engines were not on the airframe until November 41.

Weird, there was a guy running around on my server a while back with it once, he said he couldn't see himself wearing a hat. He had used it from the inventory selection and couldn't take it off. I think it is a white box without a fix? It has been so long. It works for me and my team, I fixed the model, it can be selected from inventory. If you say you can see it in the cut scene, which is loaded from in game, then you might be able to give it to your self by playing with your preset, as you have to do with the Russian garrison cap.

[Capt. Stirling]

We're talking about the blue-prints, designs, the models. Not the actual aircraft. The design called for the BMW engine by 1941. But again we both agree that the mission should take place in 1942. BOTH of us agree that many of the anomalies and anachronisms including the briefing recon photo point to mid-late 1942. 
Same goes for the jeep. Not an inaccuracy and more than possible.

True on the count of the SS uniforms existence BUT I doubt an SD officer sent to interrogate British commando personnel or resistance agents in late war Czech would be wearing it. Gestapo was most active in civilian clothing. To be honest, it doesn't bother me too much. I don't know the scripting language to change them to the SS officer uniforms to make it worth it anyway. 

I get that the Liberator mission is meant to take place over a variety of locales in Czechoslovakia. BUT the Sumava was NOT in the Russian occupation zone. However in the game it is the scene of the Russian stand off. All these aspects I've adjusted in the texty to accommodate history. 

Weird situation on the cap. I'd love to get it. What did you do, edit the script? I've downloaded Hawk's script editor or whatever that massive series of editors were. I don't know much about it yet, only the basics of what it is capable of. Yes I can see the cap so I'd love to add it to the inventory.

BTW would it be possible to find a DTA unpacker to read the SS files or does a specific program like the existing one for H&D2 need to be coded?

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

Well, I'm talking about the "models" being used in the test tunnels on Arctic 2. These are of the V3 aircraft, that first flew in July 42. The jet engines were on the V2 aircraft from November 41, but these also had the prop in the nose.

It doesn't bother me much either, but people love to kill them. The uniform doesn't necessarily make him SD though.

I think you might be confused regarding Liberator... it is in Soviet territory.

It is more specifically taking place in Bohemia, and originally you said the train station was near Brno, which is in Czech, but not in Bohemia. Now you changed it to say the train station is deep inside Slovakia, where Brno is not, and deep inside would not be "near" Poland, well not as near as Broumov. Bohemia, was being rolled over by the Soviets, historically, as the missions are playing out.

The Soviets had just started an offensive that, had pushed through the ?umava on it's left flank, right to the German border. The US was up North between, where you say, Carlsbad and Pilsen. Not the ?umava region near the German border. So if you have modified the text to move the missions to that area, you have actually ruined it and made it less realistic.

This region was never under occupation, it was liberated; the allied leaders had agreed to let the Soviets bully them after the war, which didn't work out and they had to invade over a decade later.

I probably shouldn't have said anything about the cap comforter, I fear if I give to much information I might be responsible for hundreds of idiots running around with such a piece of beauty. It is something I had to do by hand. I wouldn't call it a script; it is just correcting a simple mistake the coders made. Which is the same with the other hats that don't work out of the box. (Which is probably giving to much information.) Grimples is already going around telling people about all the usable characters from the campaigns. I think he found out about it from one of Zdenda's posts. So I guess this is the year for the secrets to die. If you do see it though, it must be in a bad orange color, I had to desaturate the maps to get it right where it should be. You should join my server and let me know if you can see it on my head.

The unpacker would work, I think it just needs the proper set of keys that I don't think have been decoded yet, and I have never tried.

Do you have msnm/wlm?

[Capt. Stirling]

Why would a prototype model not include a version with the intended BMW installation? I realize the V1 was piston driven and the V2 had it as fail safe. The V2's engines actually flamed out and the piston engine saved the pilot during those tests.
If I said that the whole lab idea is not historic because most Me262 production/design was done inside Germany (which it was) you'd say that it was off  the books and therefore plausible. So with that willing suspension of disbelief, couldn't the Germans also be conducting tests with the intended design MODEL with BMW engines installed since the turbines existed in early1941? The the engines were already being constructed for the Me 262. In any case the argument would only attempt to justify or disprove the inclusion of the model for the 1941 setting which we both agree was not the intended setting for the game.  

The uniform has been used as somewhat of a cinematic staple for epitomizing an important Nazi villain. Not saying the uniforms weren't ever used in late war circumstances.

And I didn't say the uniform made him SD I said the character's mission made him more likely to be SD. 

Which Soviet offensive in the Sumava region? The forest range occupies South Western Czechoslovakia and the US stop line occupies more than half of it. The forested area lies behind Ceske Budejovice.

From the official U.S. Army History of World War II "The Green Books"
[img width=736 height=600]http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA ... st-XVI.jpg[/img]




When did I say Brno was in Slovakia? I said Liptakov (Liptovsky) is. And as far as where I relocated the missions, I based them off of the historic occupation zones which hasn't ruined anything. I simply changed the Liptakov station to a rail town slightly west of Brno. According to the briefing and text, in order for them to meet the 97th they need to head north of Pilsen.

Eisenhower gave reports and Allied plans to the Soviets in an effort (ironically) to appease them. I never said the area was under occupation, I was tactically referring to the area which Allied troops occupied . And I would hardly say the Allied leaders agreed to let themselves be "bullied." Patton is famously known of his willingness to fight the Soviets and the British camp was reluctant to give up the drive to Berlin and the failure to protect Poland, the Balkans and Central Europe from falling under Soviet control.

Bohemia was under U.S. control until the mutual Allied-Soviet withdraw of 1 December 1945.

I've been talking about SP the whole time! I'm interested in the cap for SP not MP. Not trying to unearth any secrets, just out to enjoy the SP.

No msn unfortunately but I have chat capability in yahoo.

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

You make a good argument there for the Me262.

You know you can easily change the uniform to be the correct one?

Well the whole region in the Prague Offensive. Even if US history books were reliable, even military history books written by a "winner" , that still only shows the line on the 8th, when the final battle takes place on the 6th, conceivably in an area where the US didn't make such a big push. The Soviet forces in the end are probably NKVD advance forces. The ISU, whom ever is driving it, doesn't do such a great job. This ain't an armored unit. I wasn't saying that the Soviets have complete control of the region, just that it was a Soviet area of operations at the time. Which is clear from the mission, only a few Soviets, specifically looking for intelligence.

How do you know that the Lipt?kov station, that is supposed to be in Bohemia, is actually supposed to be in Slovakia? I had started reading before you edited it and you said that it is based on a train station in Brno near where they developed the game.

You do know that the actual "Americans" you meet are wearing 82nd insignia right? Furthermore they are just three men in a jeep on a special mission. Nothing leads me to believe they are within distance of their parent unit. Robertson? Is that Major General Robertson? While he might have been superior to the 97th, until the 6th of May actually when it was transferred to another Army, he never commanded the 97th. While the 97th, a month earlier, was assigned to a Corps that included the 82nd, it might be possible that they retained three guys they liked from it. I think we know that the briefings and intro movies do not always exactly follow the course the level designers originally intended. Editing out mention of the 97th and Robertson from the briefing is very simple, and, at least I believe, more consistent.

When I say allied leaders, I mean the "Big Three", and yes they did agree to let the Soviets bully the Czechoslovak government, you know, "influence".

Well for SP, you need to do a little more work. Or you can just shoot the guy in the Dakota and take it from him.

[Capt. Stirling]

I made the mistake of Brno on the fly and edited it shortly after consulting a map that was more to scale. The real city of Liptovsky is in Slovakia. And I know Brno is in Czech. I've found no map of Liptakov as spelled this way or pronounced. I've looked at post cold war atlases and google earth etc.

I agree that its more than likely advance elements of an NKVD Rifle Division. Russian records are easily as subjective as U.S. ones so by that standard "you had to be there."  However its not wikipedia here, the Green Books are the backbone of understanding US WWII military history. Most WWII historians writing about American operations will consult them first for the official overall picture before detailed archival research and interviews are conducted.

We clearly liberated the heavily forested areas. Elements of Third Army stopped at Prague's outskirts. The May 8th line shows actually where we had fallen back to. Patton was moving ahead and Bradley lobbied to go into Prague but Eisenhower had recalled advance units. So there was quite a bit of activity on our part. The Russians didn't reach Prague until May 9. We were actually closer but agreed to not enter.

As for the game, I know the airborne uniforms are marked 82nd, which is annoying since they are used to represent regular infantrymen. And yes, A Czech liaison officer with a vehicle mounted party of the 16th Armored Div were sent to Prague to find Gen. Shoerner to tell his HQ to surrender in light of the Rhiems signing. So I understand there was some line crossing going on.
As of interest, the infantry units occupying the area near Ceske Budejovice were 1st Div soldiers from the 26th Regt. which are the original US infantry skins from the game 

I'm working on editing all the briefings in my spare time to reflect some of the changes I made in the chronology and detail of the operations.

We're talking about Maj. Gen. Walter M. Robertson who commanded the 2nd Inf Div with no connection to the 97th other than being in the theatre of ops.

Ahh didn't understand what you meant in terms of the Allied leaders. I agree, the Czech's and Allies were influenced but make no mistake Churchill loathed the US approach to Stalin policy. And I for one don't blame him.

Hah

Or you can just shoot the guy in the Dakota and take it from him

 

It would be interesting to change the uniforms of the SS. I've got the script editor so I'll play with it. Hopefully I won't wreck the game 

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

Well it looks like a small town off the map, it might also just be fictional. Either way, you are making an outrageous connection to a "similar" named town in a completely different far away region.

I'm not trying to go by Soviet records! There is nothing official about this mission, it is in the underbelly of operations. The Soviets were in this area, around May 6, the Soviets that are in the same boat as the team in the game, trying to get these documents, would have had the breathing room needed to get in there with out alerting the US forces in the area. I find it extremely plausible.

I was bringing up the Prague Offensive as the operation that had Soviet units poised to be in that area of the forest. When the Soviets reached Prague shouldn't be an issue, as they were separate units than the ones in the area we are discussing.

Changing the skins from 82nd to 1st, shouldn't be much of an issue.

Yes, the same Robertson, who was also in connection with them by being subordinate to the same field army, which is what I brought up!

[Capt. Stirling]

Well, I wouldn't say necessarily that my claim is "outrageous" since I was just trying to locate the real town of Liptakov only to find that there isn't one but rather a very closely named one which is in Slovakia. And your said earlier that these missions have them traveling quite a bit so it shouldn't bother you too much that I made such a connection 

The point of the discussion is to identify the impossibilities and some of the improbable items of interest that can be easily fixed. Both of us retain the ability to suspend elements of disbelief with what it already given to us by the core game design. A small NKVD party in Sumava is plausible but an advanced armored detachment isn't. The game doesn't specify so I did in both the texty and mission briefing. I personally love the twist and fighting the Commies is just as fun as the Germans. 

Soviet units were close enough to send an advance unit, but by May 6 we were in the forest.

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

It is! The missions are supposed to be all taking place in Bohemia, especially the first one at the station. Slovakia is very far away compared to all the places in Bohemia the missions have you running to. That is like 500km through two regions, compared to 300km within the same region. Many town names are commonly used, especially "Lhota", like in Czech 3. You can't find a Lhota online and say that is it. Czech 2 and 3, are I think are taking place in the same region.

I don't see how not, the Soviets were obviously dispatched with the mission to attack the bunker and claim the intelligence; it could have been sent days earlier. If the US was in the forest to the point that the Soviets were "locked out", why are they not relieving the team? The mission actually takes place on the 5th, my mistake. We don't know where in the forest the bunker is located, it can be on the south-eastern most edge. I am not convinced that this situation is not probable, I want you to convince me. I think you are going in the wrong direction with these missions.

The ending cutscene on Czech 3; I gave them the 1stID skins and removed the No4Mk1 rifle from one of their hands and changed the twins so they have different faces.

[Capt. Stirling]

I know where Bohemia and Slovakia are. 

What makes you say that Liptakov is in Bohemia. The game has already proved to be erroneous with dates regarding the Lofot operation so why wouldn't they make a mistake here? The bloody date for the Blade Dancer mission is set in May before the D-Day landings!

There are many ways in which towns with the Lhota designation are identified. The 500 or so villages with that title aren't all simply spelled Lhota. So your point about Liptakov actually being one of these non-descript towns is void.

I was looking for the specific name of the Liptakov city/town. All I could find was Liptovsky whose name may suggest the influence for the town in the game. I'm changing the town to Breznice in central Bohemia. Its a rail town and its not far from the events in the mission.

You're entitled to your opinion. And you've made your point. The situation in the end sequence is not impossible. In terms of Liptakov, I was trying to see if the actual location exists. Since it doesn't there's no need to argue the point that it would be highly improbable for an Allied team to be trekking those distances. That was my original case anyway, but it was based on the location the Liptovsky village.

The idea that the missions all take place in the region of Bohemia was my original aim. Not to convince you that the whole mission is impossible. However because of the exact location of where the U.S. forces had stopped, it made me question the possibility of a Soviet force penetrating that zone, at least in the dates given in the game.

In terms of the size of the force attacking the bunker, it needs to be small and an NKVD unit just like are team. Special assignment, designed to attract little attention. Even if the bunker is on the South Eastern most edge, the concentration of U.S. Armies meeting in Germany, Austria and Bohemia would make it difficult by May 5 for any Soviet force larger than that to penetrate the agreed stop lines.

As for the U.S. force relieving the team, based on where the Budejovice line ends, I would wonder why by that point in May they weren't. It would be more likely for the bunker to be an SS holdout along the Austro-Czech forested border to the south east of Ceske Budejovice. Most of the Czech bunkers were to the North and East of the country anyway.

To be honest, this discussion seems to only be aimed at identifying inconsistencies in my desire for certain elements of detail/accuracy to enrich the game. There is such a thing as healthy skepticism, but you seem to play devil's advocate casuing this 'discussion' to....


Nice work for the Czech 3 sequence. I can't wait to learn how to script edit and make those types of changes.

Btw H&D2 is my favorite game too otherwise I wouldn't be here. 

[-ViTaMiHnM203-]

The first part of the loading brief is: "We are in Bohemia, a land which was one of the first to be occupied by Nazi Germany." They place us in Bohemia and there is also a popular fictional Lipt?kov, in the north, west of Broumov. It is very possible that the game designers were into this, and decided to use it as a name for their opening village.

Sure, the dates can be off, the month early dates on the Blade Dancer operation are a simple mistake for someone that is not privy to "popular" history. Though, the first game ended around the same time when Germany surrendered, I don't think this is a mistake. What date do you think would best fit the situation?

Ok, then identify it, I am interested, it is the Lhoto village 6 miles south of a sawmill and villa next to a train track, in the opposite direction of Pilsen.

It is like what? Twenty men with two vehicles? What if they were already operating in the forest? It is likely that the one Soviet officer is the only one intended to be an NKVD type, and the rest are men grabbed at the last minute from some odd place, possibly Czech partisans equipped by the Soviets. You know since the cutscene for Czech 2 has three men that appear to be Soviet, are actually billed as Czech partisans.

Actually, that seems to be a better bet, the bunker is actually supposed to be to the north, closer to Broumov, why would this guy want to transport valuables to the other side of the county when the German border was right there? Someone just went and reused the ?umava tidbit from the previous missions. Do you have a map of every Czech Frontier bunker?

No, not just your desire, mine too. I have been making lots of changes over the seven or so years this game has been out. When I see something off I correct it. I am just as interested in inconsistencies as you, and if you can't be objective, you can't really get to the truth.

It is child's play actually, if you get msnm/wlm I would be glad to walk you through it. I did it mostly by hand, it took maybe five minutes to find the files, change them and place them. Though the next step is correcting the nasty British type suspenders on the 1stID skin. For that, I need my artist.

[Capt. Stirling]

I knew the partisans were cast with russki uniforms. I was actually thinking they would look better in some amalgamation of civie, soviet and german items. What do you think?

I'm just surprised that someone aware of Claymore would make the mistake for the month of Overlord, provided its not a typo. The Channel fortress is fine for an operation (with a different code-name) could be set in May, but not Blade Dancer. I don't know the name and therefore the location of the city but I'd say the action should take place somewhere inside the first weeks of June when the bulk of US airborne forces were linking with the infantry. Of course, one could edit the uniforms and have them as infantrymen cut off from there parent unit during any point in June - July period.

As you know, NKVD Rifle Divisions operated with army units in a variety of garrison and front-line duties including intel gathering. They were usually given the worst equipment to be spared by the parent Army or Division. In the game the Kubelwagen points to it being an NKVD unit but the ISU we could suppose was requisitioned by the platoon commander. These soldiers would have been sent from Konev's First Ukrainian Front from the Eastern Bohemian area.

The Sumava region was chosen because it would make more sense for escaping SS personnel to want to move towards Austria, Switzerland and possibly Italy to escape Soviet territory and even Europe (rat-line etc.). Broumov borders Poland. While its technically in Bohemia, its in Soviet territory. Not the best escape route. Upon examination of all this, the whole thing is plausible as is. It would just need to be a very discreet NKVD patrol. And of course the bunker would have to be somewhat imagined.

I've changed my position based on the fact that its a heavily forested area and while US units were resent in early May, its not beyond the stretch of imagination to say that an action like this in such a chaotic situation could happen.

I don't unfortunately have a map of every WWII Czech bunker installation. However what I've read indicates that the bulk of the artillery bunkers like the one in the game are located to the Northern frontier. There are some heavier forts in the south bordering Austria east of Linz.

Good point about Lhoto. 
You can be objective without being argumentative. 

I'll have to get msn then. I've read Hawk's editor manual and it does seem pretty easy. However I wouldn't mind having you show me what you already know so I can build from there. Thanks for the offer, that's very kind of you.